Review of Daredevil Born Again episodes "With Interest" and "Excessive Force"

Join us for our review of Daredevil Born Again episodes 5 and 6! 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Daredevil Double Episode
• 5:22 Law Firm Financing Challenges
• 13:26 The Bank Robbery and Legal Implications
• 25:37 Matt's Heroics and Safe Cracking Skills
• 30:12 Serial Killer Investigation Begins
• 38:10 Mayor Fisk's Task Force and Excessive Force
• 44:27 Matt Returns as Daredevil to Save Lives

Transcript

Joshua Gilliland: 0:05

Hello everyone, my name is Joshua Gilliland, one of the founding attorneys of the Legal Geeks. It's Wednesday, it's the day after we had two new episodes of Daredevil and we're going to talk about them because it's WonderCon week. With me is retired Judge Matt Sherino. Your Honor, how are you tonight?

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 0:25

I am good. I didn't know it was going to be a double episode, so it was a pleasant surprise. Is retired Judge Matt Sherino. Your Honor, how are you?

Joshua Gilliland: 0:30

tonight. I am good. I didn't know it was going to be a double episode, so it was a pleasant surprise. Yeah, and both were excellent. So I don't know if they're doing this to clear the deck for Andor Season 2, so that way it's over by then, or if there's some other plan in motion. But wow, these were glorious, so let's, let's get to it. Uh, your honor, first off, what did you think of these, these episodes?

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 0:59

I thought they, they, they went well together. So I I kind of get why they did the two. They certainly both really focused in on Matt Murdock's Irish and Catholic roots and, you know, continue the crisis that's going on within him as to whether or not to resurrect the dead devil, as to whether or not to resurrect the the dead devil, and so, you know, it kind of flowed and it made sense to link these two and they were, they were, they were incredibly good episodes.

Joshua Gilliland: 1:34

Yeah, I thought both are amazing. I think I liked the bank robbery one a little bit more, but that's it. It's still really close and and just exceptionally well done, well acted master class in storytelling. So let's break down the litany of legal issues that starts on a saint patrick's day episode and, uh, out of the gate, there there's a beautiful connection to Miss Marvel with her dad, is the banker that Matt goes to visit for a loan for the law firm and again, a subtle little Easter egg. You know he plays a major role in the entire episode. That was, I'm like that's the type of connected universe met marvel fans like that going back.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 2:30

What? Was it his daughter or a friend of his daughters? That? Because he said that miss marvel comes from jersey city and it's and I. There was some connection with the daughter, but I wasn't positive that it was his daughter. In fact it is his daughter that's.

Joshua Gilliland: 2:43

That's very cool. Yeah, so again, and it was his daughter in fact, it is his daughter.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 2:45

Oh, that's very cool.

Joshua Gilliland: 2:46

Yeah. So again, when he appeared on screen I was like he was in Ms Marvel. That's her dad, it's like cool, and naturally it would have a Funko Pop of his daughter on his desk, while also not blowing her secret identity. So having her off in California on some adventure was also cool, but Daredevil is the type of character who would bump into her, or Spider-Man and this is again nice little Easter eggs for the rest of the Marvel continuity. Funding a law firm is hard. Matt's firm is pretty big for being a year old, two named partners I don't know if there are others who are breadwinners and they have a healthy staff. And it was nice to actually see that discussed as a reason for getting a loan and the challenges the bank recognized with that. So again, I just thought that was interesting.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 3:54

Yeah, the bank manager brought up both their expansion and how they've been spending the money and also was very quick to point out that they seem to have, although they're very good at the spending of the money, they're not as good as getting paying clients that can continue the operation of a firm. That is that size front office. The Vig on rent is a lot less than when you're doing a Manhattan space with the you know, big conference rooms and a very nice size law office with, even if they're the only two lawyers, there certainly was a lot of other staff and paralegals and other people at that firm.

Joshua Gilliland: 4:44

Yeah, you know, the leverage rule is a secretary is supposed to help, like three lawyers, maybe five in some situations, but like one to three. The paralegal ratio can also vary, like you know. One per team. So if you have a litigation team, you might have a litigation paralegal assigned to that team. So if you have a litigation team, you might have a litigation paralegal assigned to that team. Again, results vary depending on the firm and the complexity of their cases. But, flashing back to law school, those were the leverage numbers and they have a big space with a whole bunch of people. And now it'd be one thing to go like, yeah, there's nine lawyers and you know enough support staff, so a number they seem. They seem to be running big. We then get to a bank robbery, a good old fashioned bank robbery episode, which again is a very comic book opportunity. But, your Honor, what jumped out?

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 5:52

at you A few things. Both the bank robbery and then when it turned into a hostage situation gave me vibes of Dog Day Out Dog Day Afternoon with Al Pacino, which was a great flick from 1975. And it just brought back some memories of that. It also the lead robber at least had an Irish brogue, which certainly played well into St Patrick's Day. In fact, while talking with the negotiator in order to buy more time, he asked for a joke and the negotiator provided a good Irish joke to get some extra time.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 6:33

Legally, most bank robberies tend to be prosecuted by the federal government if they're of that level, as opposed to a small little failed attempt that might be prosecuted in the state. If you're charged with bank robbery, you're dealing with Section 2113 of 18 US Code, which does make robbing a bank and the incidental crimes that are associated with robbing the bank into a felony which you can be sentenced for a period of not more than 20 years but up to 20 years in jail. If you're charged in the New York statute, you're going to probably be charged with robbery in the first degree, which is a class B felony which would be punishable by five to 25 years, and robbery in the first degree in New York is Section 160.15 of our penal law and that would be basically a bumped up robbery, because you're either armed with a deadly weapon or you cause physical injury there was some hitting with the gun, et cetera or even just displaying a firearm brings it up to that robbery in the first degree.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 8:07

There was also a very interesting discussion with Matt Murdock, who was kind of trying to negotiate a good resolution of the situation by, you know, telling the bank robbers that you know, at this point they were only facing robbery, you know.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 8:28

But if someone were to be murdered or killed while this was going on, that one of them might be prosecuted for felony murder.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 8:37

And felony murder is a type of crime that has been up to some discussion over the years. Some states have even gotten rid of felony murder. But what felony murder basically is is that in the course of the commission of a felony, if someone were to die, then everyone that was part of that group that was committing the felony would be subjected to a murder charge for the death of that individual. And there are in New York some affirmative defenses to the felony murder that if you really can prove that you had nothing to do with the homicidal act, if you didn't know that your co-conspirators were armed or had deadly weapons, there was no reasonable belief that death could happen, all of those things would be affirmative defenses to felony murder. But if you are convicted of felony murder, which is the same as murder in the second degree, which we discussed in earlier episodes, this is a Class A1 felony, which means you would be subject to life in prison.

Joshua Gilliland: 9:51

The felony murder rule has been one of those catch-alls and it's kissing cousin to conspiracy liability as well. For again, what was the nature of the conspiracy of the felonious act? And if it was bank robbery, okay is. Is murder a natural, improbable consequence of someone getting killed during a bank robbery? And yeah, I could see a jury saying yes, uh, but it could be very fact, specific of you know, I I was. I did not sign up for this, but that's again encourages people to make good life choices, not not to go down the path of committing a felony in the first place.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 10:36

And felony murder is a pretty old charge. It's been around for a very, very long time In fact. I think it pretty much predates a lot of the conspiracy charges that have come about. So that's one of the reasons I think there's that overlap. And, additionally, once they actually grabbed everyone as hostages, started to negotiate with the hostage negotiator from the NYPD. That ups it in the federal realm as well. And once you're talking holding hostages, you're under Section 1201 of the 18 US Code and that basically now makes you subject to a possible sentence of the death penalty and or life imprisonment, so that hostage taking really does escalate the crime to pretty much the highest level in what you could be charged for in this country.

Joshua Gilliland: 11:32

So life choice? Don't do that. But the hostage situation again we get into. There's false imprisonment and kidnapping and again guns are out. We're telling people to kneel. One thing that struck me as the I don't know how many people are aware of this phenomenon. My mom was a paramedic and one of the things that she believed from experience was in that hostage situation, killers don't want to look at someone's face when they shoot them to end their lives. So that's why we'll say, like, lay down on the ground, face down. And when the hostages were told to put their heads down, I was concerned we were going to start seeing people get killed because, like you, can't make eye contact and that's one of those deterrents to people getting killed. Results may vary, but that's that was what she learned from her experience, and I don't know if you've heard similar things. Your Honor and in your time, with being on the bench.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 12:51

Yes, psychology-wise, clearly, if you establish a rapport with the person, it's much harder to kill someone that you have a bit of a relationship with than if you are a total stranger that they don't even know what you look like. Also, for the fact of future testifying against you if they can't identify you because their faces were down during any of the periods where you did not have the masks on, there's certainly, you know, less of a threat, when and if you're caught in the future, of those people being able to identify you as the person who was part of the group that robbed the bank. If you always had a mask on, except for the periods when they had their face down, then they really can't ever say, yes, that's the person that was holding us hostage.

Joshua Gilliland: 13:53

So let's get into some of the hero aspects of this. Murdoch is out of the bank on the phone with his partner when the robbery starts and he decides to go back. He has zero duty to rescue, like there's no special relationship. I mean, you know, alone was just denied. Leaving with sore feelings is understandable. Going back to make sure the people who denied, alone because it's the right thing to do to make sure people don't die is again the hero status of him, which I thought was well played Because it's not over the top. He just goes out and does the right thing, with a gun getting pointed at him multiple times in the process multiple times in the process.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 14:48

Additionally, you know when he could have again left, because the negotiator was able to, you know, as a sign of good faith, get a promise to release two of the hostages. And Matt was going to be one of those two hostages and the other was going to be a couple and the wife didn't want to leave without her husband and Matt willingly stood in for the husband so that the couple would be able to be released and he continued to stay longer. And clearly, you know, when everything was said and done, you know talking with the bank manager again who kind of said you know, this doesn't mean that you're going to get the loan after he does all of this kind of stuff, and he's basically, you know, had no expectation of that. You know, kind of just to show that he was just doing the right thing.

Joshua Gilliland: 15:42

Which was awesome, like. So, again, the finding out his superpower does include safe cracking, which again cool, uh, we haven't seen graphically I love the way they handled that.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 15:54

It was fun to watch the way, uh, you know the, the dials of the, of the safe kind of worked in. Or you know what he was visualizing in his blind world as to the, the triple tumbler safe it was very cool.

Joshua Gilliland: 16:13

The stairwell fight was also masterful, having the added element of don't make any noise and catching the rifle to keep it from falling. It's just like well done. I mean great choreography, uh, great message as well, of he's just trying to do the right thing and beats the tar out of two dudes, and then the final fight with with the leader fantastic, just very well done, uh. And he made a friend like that was the other good thing.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 16:48

Uh, it's like come over for dinner and let's we'll talk about how to make your firm more profitable right, and it was, you know, not just an offer of a thank you dinner, it was, you know, let's, let's discuss how we can make your firm, um, you know, basically get into the black, so that either you'll be able to qualify for a future loan or you won't need a future loan. And it was nice to see, as far as the you know, the target of the robbery itself, which turned out to be the contents of a safety deposit box. I know that, or at least I believe from the prior movies, that all of the Infinity Stones are gone or accounted for or what have you, but to me it looked very much like a Infinity Stone, but I don't know if it was an Infinity Stone or not.

Joshua Gilliland: 17:41

I don't think so. Okay, because a human being wouldn't be able to touch it without negative consequences. Okay so that makes sense. But it did look special and if it is worth $1.7 million, there's got to be some quality to that. Maybe it's not of this earth or maybe it's just really special. But the entire fake out with like catch and dropping it off and switching it out with candy, all very well done, very clever.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 18:11

And luckily, the candy was of similar color and shape as the jewel.

Joshua Gilliland: 18:17

Yeah, good thing you like caramel, you know it's like again, just good storytelling and just fun. It felt like a comic book come to life and which is, uh, one of those great qualities. And that fight at the end brutal, it was well earned for a nice slug fest, uh, at the end. But let's get to the second episode of the evening, uh, which is, uh I didn't catch the name of episode six episode six was excessive force.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 18:54

So episode five was with interest, which makes sense, with the, the bank and and the loan, and then episode six was called excessive force, which also very much is the topic of episode six.

Joshua Gilliland: 19:08

Yeah, on multiple levels. So, yeah, premise sanitation department figures out that the graffiti going up is made with uh, the paints mixed with blood and so it's really hard to clean off. And there have been a lot of people disappearing, so their body count is at least 60. So that is at the freak out level of how how many? Uh, because I don't think any of the other serial killing cases that we've had in real life are pushing those kind of numbers in that short a period of time. Uh, so again, a high level of terror and a lot of things are going to make sense for why people uh take issue. But uh, people take issue. But we have Bebe interviewing a graffiti artist who shows his face and admits to doing graffiti. It's a party admission, your Honor, how would that kid get charged?

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 20:12

I certainly had my fair share of graffiti cases, especially when I was in the lower criminal court, and you know the graffiti artists themselves are not shy about who they are. Sometimes it's hard to necessarily catch them in the act, although they do have, generally a specific tag that they will use so that other graffiti artists know that it's them. That same tag is used by the NYPD to track graffiti artists and charge them with graffiti. And making graffiti in New York is a crime under Section 14560 of the penal law. It's a Class A misdemeanor, which means it's punishable by up to a year in jail.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 21:03

Generally. For the first time that you're caught you're going to get a violation. It'll then get scaled up Generally you'll end up doing community service and cleaning up graffiti. And so that admission in and of itself unless he is subsequently charged with making graffiti and they have something that ties him to a particular piece of graffiti then they would be able to possibly use that admission because that's a declaration against his own interest, which is one of those exceptions to hearsay which would be admissible at trial. So that, coupled with the actual graffiti and something that ties that individual to that piece of graffiti, would be enough probably for a prosecution of that individual.

Joshua Gilliland: 21:58

I have never, thankfully, had any cases that dealt with uh, blood being mixed within the graffiti paint no, no and and I think the reaction from the mayor having everyone I want the chief here like that reaction of maybe we need to change procedures, was understandable. With how many people are gone.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 22:24

Right, and also the fact that it was the Department of Sanitation, who you know from the prior episodes. We know that there's a bit of some bad blood with the Department of Sanitation and the mayor's office because of some of the things that they're doing, and it was the Department of Sanitation who has brought this, you know, serial killer and this crime spree to his attention as opposed to his own police department, also kind of and I think justifiably angered the mayor in that this is how that you know he was learning about this particular thing and serial killers to a large extent, you know, from the things that I've read and I never had any, thankfully any serial killers before me, but thankfully any serial killers before me, but they do tend to keep some kind of trophies, or and the fact that he was basically making the blood of all of his victims into this public display of art as a public trophy, I you know it really gave me some thought. It was really really sick and evil, but it's a very, very dark turn that the story took.

Joshua Gilliland: 23:50

Yeah, I agree, I haven't read every Daredevil story, I just haven't. I don't know if this was from a storyline or if this is something the writers came up with for a really dark evil crime spree that's taking place, but collecting blood to make graffiti is a new level of scary um and his, his lair itself, and you know there's sometimes you can't really call something a lair.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 24:21

This was a lair, um, it was, was, was a. You know straight out of your, your nightmare yeah, because it's just.

Joshua Gilliland: 24:32

it's a butcher shop by the train station Right.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 24:38

Hanging bodies and hanging body parts and just table. It was just a real scary haunted house.

Joshua Gilliland: 24:46

Yeah, we're going to call that not good. So, going back to the mayor's office, he gets a visit from one of his prime boss family members who just shows up. Prime boss family members, uh, who just shows up. I don't know how difficult that would be in real life. I know I just can't pop in and see a mayor in any of the major cities in the bay area. Like it doesn't work that way. Yeah, you might see one, but like, if you're in downtown San Jose you might see the mayor, if you're in Oakland you might see the mayor, but you don't just go hang out at the mayor's office and wait for them to show up. That might be the most unrealistic part of this episode.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 25:39

Since I was appointed by two mayors one mayor twice and and one mayor once I've had the privilege of having to go see the mayor on several occasions and even with an appointment to see the mayor and being expected at the mayor's office, it is not that easy to get through all of the levels that you have to get to to actually get into that office or for one of my appointments to the mayor's house. There's various layers of security and just showing up unannounced and having to also be probably the leader, one of the families of the Russian mob or the Latvian mob or whichever one Luca is part of, generally they're going to send you away and you would never even get anywhere close to the door, let alone to the secretary who's saying you know, someone wants to see you and they won't take no for an answer.

Joshua Gilliland: 26:35

You ain't getting that close to see you and they won't take no for an answer. You ain't getting that close. No, it's going in for a case management conference at any of the local courthouses. You're going through a metal detector. The belt comes off Like that's all of them, even the tiny ones. You're jumping through those hoops. You're not going to go pop in to see your buddy, the mayor of New York City. It's just not happening. But they're talking about a criminal conspiracy at the mayor's office. No, bad. Good thing he doesn't have like a recording device in there, because that's never been a problem.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 27:17

he doesn't have like a recording device in there, because that's never been a problem. Yeah, clearly you know there's issues with official misconduct which can be charged under the penal law on the section 195.05 for using the office to conduct criminal enterprises. Also clearly there would be problems with the conflict of interest laws under the city charter because you can't engage in any kind of business or transaction which would give you a private financial interest and being the top of a criminal enterprise and discussing deals and ransoms and taxes to your criminal enterprise on public property in the city hall would clearly be a violation of many, many, many conflict of interest laws, if not in fact criminal under the official misconduct statutes.

Joshua Gilliland: 28:12

Yeah, well said. Now there's something that I thought was interesting. Uh included the fundraiser that they go to uh and the interactions that take place, and I think there's this a second cameo. I'm not positive, but I thought the guy with the ascot was almost kate bishop's stepdad, that he was from the hawkeye series.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 28:36

He looked very familiar I know I he was. He was in better call saul. Um he he played, uh, one of the um really violent and effective members of of one of the mexican cartels. Um, that was part of the better call Saul show and played a phenomenal, phenomenal role as just an incredibly good hitman and negotiator for some of your more extreme elements of the cartel.

Joshua Gilliland: 29:12

So I'm not 100% the same person, but I was like I want to double check this because, again, subtle Easter eggs like that are well done, just being able to go hey, we've seen them before and like that's a nice touch that they have. But the idea that power brokers within the city are not thrilled with fisk trying to fix up red hood or red hook red hook because it would. Now he made his money at the docks and therefore it seems self-serving it's like oh, that's astute and different and and on one level it's a little weird for me wanting to defend the kingpin him going like no ports matter. Getting shipments and industry coming in is radically important. We get imports, we need it to work, we need it to be safe, we want this type of commerce and yeah, I have experience here, but that's because I know it's important.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 30:32

So that's why I'm pushing it and some of the outer boroughs and their battle to get part of the pie. And Red Hook are the ports of Brooklyn that lead into the old Navy ports of Brooklyn and they have suffered and there's always attempts to rebuild them. There's cruises that are now there to rebuild them. There's cruises that are now there. So the Manhattan and those other people want all of the money to the New York City Manhattan ports as opposed to the outlying Red Hook ports.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 31:09

So that part can be somewhat accurate. I mean, I love Fiske's line when he said that you know, politics and crime is basically the same. You find what a person wants and you either withhold it or you provide it and and that, in a nutshell, you know is how he negotiates and and that then goes through for the rest of the episode as such. But that, yeah, I thought that that you know thatiser, which is probably what it was, was really well done to just show the we don't accept you as one of us. It almost gave me Eva Peron vibes, where the the Argentina aristocracy would not accept this person, who came from a peasant class, to be amongst them.

Joshua Gilliland: 32:07

It's. President Jimmy Carter had problems with the DC elite because it's like, even though they were all on the same political party, they had problems playing nice together. On the same political party, they had problems playing nice together. But again, other issues, other examples. So we've discussed our serial killer. Is there anything that you want to? Oh well, we get the special task force, hence where the name excessive force comes from. There's when, when the leverage is, they get over time and they don't have to wear a body camera. Uh, I, I agree with knocking out overtime seems to be a bad life choice for city politics. To keep the streets safe, no body cam seems to be inviting all kinds of problems. Can you elaborate on that issue?

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 33:05

They set out to basically form a task force of NYPD officers that play very loose with the rules. So they had a binder of various officers that qualified and you qualified if you were maybe a little bit rougher than you should be or did things to short circuit the system and really brought it to a level of street justice. And really brought it to a level of street justice and to save money. One of the mayoral reforms was to cut the overtime of his police officers. This was also done, I think, to punish the commissioner for not playing ball with the current mayor. So these officers would be exempt from that rule, mayor. So these officers would be exempt from that rule. They would be allowed to have overtime, which, of course, would increase all of their salaries. And they also said that this group of officers would not have to wear body cams.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 34:12

And in New York, as part of the settlement in the Floyd versus the city of New York lawsuit, part of the settlement was that the NYPD would embark on a body cam cameras. They are required in most circumstances to have those cameras on when they interact with people. There are very rare exceptions where they can turn off the cameras, including and these things make sense. If they're talking with a confidential informant, if they're interviewing a sex crime victim, if they're conducting a strip search for those things, they are allowed to shut off the cameras, but it does indicate when they put on the camera, when they shut off the camera. So if there's a gap, they would have to explain that. And those cameras, the digital recordings of those cameras, are then preserved and then, if relevant, those digital cameras, the digital footage, can be used in a court. They can be used in a civilian complaint review board. They can be used by the police department's administration if someone should be disciplined. But in large part, every officer is required in New York City to use the cameras. So by not using the cameras, you're basically saying to this task force you could do whatever is necessary to get the results that we need.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 35:57

And the officer that was involved in the earlier episodes with regards to the shakedown of the confidential informant, which resulted in his death by the White Tiger, is part of this task force and it's kind of loosely based on a in 2008, 2009, there was a task force that was part of Brooklyn South Narcotics in Brooklyn and they were accused of and some of them pled to.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 36:34

Basically they were stealing drugs as off the top or skimming drugs off the top of some of their drug arrests and then using those drugs to pay off confidential informants. With the drugs that they were skimming to get information on other drug dealers and they were targeting certain drug dealers and some of the officers also pled to basically working for some of the other big drug dealers by getting some of the other competition out of the way. And a lot of officers went to jail for this or administratively decharged or took a very early pension. And you know, like in all things there's only a few bad apples to ruin the entire bunch and overwhelmingly the cops that I dealt with in the NYPD really wanted to do a good job. This particular part of NYPD history was a big black eye to the NYPD and I could see that kind of I think, basing some of this on that particular task force.

Joshua Gilliland: 37:49

And having the mayor show up and claim I'm in charge of it seems to be a high risk politically. You know, if they get results, it's one thing, but this just opens the door for corruption. Because it's one thing to take out the muse, do they disband afterwards? And he, being Mithviskisk, paints the picture of, you know, vigilantes. Muse isn't a vigilante, that's, that's the serial killer. Vigilante is not out there helping people or, excuse me, muse is not out there helping people yeah, in fact in fact the vigilante is looking to get Muse.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 38:32

The vigilante in this series is Daredevil and I have a feeling the reemergence of the White Tiger through the niece. Those are going to be the vigilantes that are targeted by this task force, and the vigilantes are trying to get the serial killer yeah, it's wrong effort guys going, going after the wrong people, uh, and it's also the.

Joshua Gilliland: 38:59

What's the punisher doing if, if 60 people have died, you think the punisher also would be on this and would not be messing around either. So again, just that. Again just one of those reactions, uh, but again it's a daredevil story. So we're going to see daredevil go in and save the day. Now the it's important to highlight there's no duty to rescue. So and you know matt's clients did so the niece coming in and asking for help.

Joshua Gilliland: 39:30

Like, lawyers get asked for help in all kinds of ways. Going out and fighting crime is not one of them normally. Uh, it's the. This is how we do a lawsuit like or administrative paperwork to file. We're not out there punching bad guys. Sorry, we don't. And Cherry, what a bad way to try to discourage somebody. Cherry gets the information about the serial killer and decides I'm going to go talk to Matt. I know it's going to upset him. Sure, I'm going to give him some scotch or rum or whatever drink and say whatever you do, don't do this. That's not a good pep talk. That's the wrong way to approach the situation. Would have been better to have said nothing, as opposed to 60 people have died. But you shouldn't go out and do anything, just setting him up to go out and start fighting crime again.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 40:40

Which I think was his absolute purpose. I think he saw how bad it was. He saw that the NYPD was not going to be able to take care of this and that it needed a certain level of skills that Matt Murdock has.

Joshua Gilliland: 40:59

So you think Cherry did reverse psychology? I think so.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 41:03

I think so.

Joshua Gilliland: 41:05

I mean he was nervous about it.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 41:07

Yeah.

Joshua Gilliland: 41:08

Yeah, hummingbird heart in effect. Hummingbird heart in effect. Now matt's reaction like calling 9-1-1 and just you know, again the spouse of the deceased calling saying the niece is missing, and matt's reaction okay, seems very superhero, suits up, goes out there and we got swinging from the rooftops. No duty to rescue, but he goes out and does it anyway. And what a beautiful fight scene. Is all of this force justified in order to save the niece? Your thoughts?

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 41:44

he was already dead, um, you know but. But arguably he didn't necessarily know that she was on the table and had a big syringe sticking out of her, but he was in his mind protecting her and using force in order to remedy the situation. And as the title of the episode is, was that force excessive in order to remedy the situation? And as the title of the episode is, was that force excessive? You know, I wasn't sure whether he beat the muse to death.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 42:28

We can probably figure out that he didn't, because when he looked to see if muse was still there, muse was no longer there. So muse probably escaped, so he didn't kill him. So he used an amount of force that was necessary to stop the Muse from being able to finish his plans with Denise. It turned out that Denise had in fact just expired and Matt was able to resuscitate her, thankfully. So I think he would have a very good argument that he might have, although he might have gone a little bit past the excessive point, you know, not just stopping but punishing the muse. I think he would have a very good argument that his actions were justified and in all honesty, I would be very surprised to see any court convict someone of beating a serial killer too much.

Joshua Gilliland: 43:30

Yeah, I don't think someone's going to prosecute that. It would be. Oh, how many times did you hit him? Okay, I don't see that ending in charges. Not that I'm encouraging anyone to go out and do that, but if you have over 60 people dead, that they can figure out and the bad guy was stopped. I don't see that ending in a criminal prosecution. And I don't see a serial killer if they're caught, prosecuted, then suing saying hey, he was a little rough, beating me up after I killed 65 people. I don't see that civil case.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 44:14

If that civil case does come out, I think that would be in the next season of She-Hulk.

Joshua Gilliland: 44:18

Yeah.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 44:19

Matt would have to hire her for for his defense.

Joshua Gilliland: 44:23

Yeah, I just no, but they're just. That's not going to go far. I mean not that you're going to see, is it possible to have jury nullification in the civil case? I think so in this situation Not the norm, but definitely plausible, with people going no, no and that'll be the end of it. These were exceptional episodes and parallel to Matt suiting up and going out to save the day as Daredevil, we see Mayor Fisk going to beat the snot out of Adam, telling him to come out of the cell, saying here's an axe, come at at me. And the fights are happening at the same same time. Storytelling wise I is. This mutual combat. Adam's still a prisoner. It's not like he could just walk out and go. Thanks you open the door, I'm leaving. He doesn't have that option. How did you classify this?

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 45:37

Yeah, I love the way they juxtapose the two fights because, you know, in some ways they're very similar.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 45:45

Both have issues with excessive force and it does show, really, the two stars of the series in a very similar act, that of attacking someone else in a very, very deadly fight.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 46:05

And I had the same query, you know, can I hand a gun to somebody and then shoot them because they have a deadly weapon? And I'm now justified to use deadly force to stop them because they have a deadly weapon? And what Fisk does is Fisk gives him an axe, clearly a deadly weapon, and he makes sure that Adam attacks him and from that point on he is defending himself using deadly force because it's apparent that he does kill Adam and thwarting Adam's attack. Now there is in the law of justification, you know, the duty to retreat. So if you have that opportunity and you don't take it, and clearly before he gives him the axe, fisk could have left and Adam was of no danger to him, because Adam was in a cage and had no weapon. So I really don't see how he would be able to avail himself of the justification defense in this situation. To me, this was giving the other side a chance so that you would be able to have a more competitive fight when you beat him to death.

Joshua Gilliland: 47:39

And I could. I was a little tired at the end. Is Adam dead, or did he just put him back in the cell and so they can repeat this dance over and over again?

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 47:49

It's probably to me it looked like he he wasn't moving anymore. I mean, with all things in tv that no one's dead until they actually have the funeral and you see him buried, um, but but I got the impression that that, uh, that he beat him to death.

Joshua Gilliland: 48:05

But yeah, it's very well that he beat him to just unconsciousness yeah, because that way you can still tell vanessa, no, I haven't killed him and and so he doesn't end up lying to her, uh, but this seemed to be. I mean, he yelled mine like that's primal and messed up on all kinds of levels. Uh, that's just uh super creepy. So, yeah, yeah, was this excessive force A little in some situations. Muse I'm not sure about Muse is the only one, I'm not sure about the others, I think. So, with that said, this series is just so good, it is so well done. Do you have?

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 49:00

similar feelings? Yeah, no, I do I. I very much liked the series um when it was on netflix and I'm very, very happy, uh, again, that they they really kept kept the stars of the Netflix Daredevil series and are continuing it's as good as the first season was, and the first season of Daredevil was, to me, one of the best Marvel series that Netflix was ever able to do.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 49:30

So you know, we use that as the benchmark. You know, when we talked about, uh, january Jones and we talked about, uh, the less successful, uh, iron Fist, um, you know, we, we all compare it to that, that first season of Daredevil, uh, the Defenders. You know how did it compare to the first season of Daredevil? How did the second season of Daredevil compare to the first season of Daredevil? It wasn't as good. It was good, not as good. This one, I think, is as good as that first season.

Joshua Gilliland: 50:01

I actually think it's better.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 50:05

Maybe Until we see that punchline at the end, you know, because you could really drop the ball at the goal line, um with, with some of these series that's happened before. But yeah, clearly it's, it's, it's, it's a very it's really good. I'm enjoying it that's good.

Joshua Gilliland: 50:21

That one of the the netflix model had too many episodes and so there ended up being what I would call filler episodes a lot of talking that it just seemed very pronounced and disney has much less of that.

Judge Matthew Sciarrino: 50:35

You know it's a very tight. Uh, you know it. The amount of episodes are just what you need. There's very little dead space. Uh, I think, yeah, I think disney has done a better job on that end. Absolutely yes agreed.

Joshua Gilliland: 50:50

So with that, everyone, thanks for tuning. We will be back next week on more of our regular schedule because of again we're going to WonderCon and for those going, look forward to seeing you and if not, stay tuned, we'll be posting on social media and, wherever you are, stay safe, stay healthy and stay geeky, take care.