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The Legal Geeks
Andor Arc 2: “Ever Been to Ghorman?”, “I Have Friends Everywhere”, and “What a Festive Evening”
Review and analysis of “Ever Been to Ghorman?”, “I Have Friends Everywhere”, and “What a Festive Evening”
No part of this recording should be considered legal advice.
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Welcome everyone. This is the episode of the Legal Geeks podcast where we talk a little bit about the second arc of Andor, with the episodes beginning with Ever been to Gorman, and my name is Stephen Tollefield. I'm one of the Legal Geeks contributors and with me tonight are the Legal Geeks founder, Josh. How are you doing, Josh?
Joshua Gilliland:I'm hanging in there fighting a cold, so you take charge tonight.
Stephen Tollafield:Excellent, happy to do it. Hope you feel better soon. Also with us is Judge Serino from the East Coast. How are you doing, judge?
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:I am good. How are you, steve and Josh hope you feel better.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, did you have any initial thoughts on the episodes?
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:I really loved every part of every series and the way that this was set up in the chapter format that they did, which is basically the trilogies. Each one was almost like a movie. So you know, to me this was the second and or movie that we had the privilege of getting to watch, so I really liked the way they set up all of these. You know, each one is it jumped forward a year, so it allowed them to cover a lot of ground that they might not have been able to do.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, that's a really astute observation. I think they even said at the celebration panel that they had envisioned these as being like kind of cinematic experiences each of these three episodes, so I think that's really playing well to the audience. So great. And then we also have with us a star wars lawyer. How's it going?
StarWarsLawyer:hey, how's it going? Uh, I'm, I'm here, I'm ready to talk about, I think, what might have been my favorite arc or at least the one that I was the most excited while watching at 2 AM.
Stephen Tollafield:It drops a little late for you there, doesn't it yeah?
StarWarsLawyer:But I, I watched the first two and I'm looking at it, it's like it's like 1 AM and I'm like, ah, but then, as the fifth one, as the fifth episode ends, I'm like yeah, I got out, I was too hype afterwards.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:Yeah, yeah, it definitely had great momentum through the I didn't have that energy, I would watch, I would watch two that the night that it came out, and then I would watch that third one, uh, and go into a social media blackout until I watched that third one, and that's the way I did. Uh, the whole series was was. I was only able to do the two, and then I would watch the third the next day.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, yeah, it's late for you on the East Coast for sure. Well, let's get started and dive in with the first episode Ever Been to Gorman, which kind of sets into motion that arc with the kind of characters moving to Gorman and setting up the eponymous massacre later on in the series. No spoilers, I guess, but so any initial observations about this episode. I think we start off kind of with Bix and Cassian kind of grappling with what's been going on in the year between the first arc where they've both been working as agents of Luthan and they're now doing some downtime. And boy is Bix going through it.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:You certainly get a lot of post-traumatic stress disorder that Bix is trying to work her way through. You have her self-medicating to some extent with some kind of narcotic substance to try to forget all that was done in her torture. But you also did get to see, you know, a little bit of the downtime and domestic life of a couple in Coruscant and you know even there is some of this downtime where they can have somewhat of a normal life in this apartment in Coruscant and I thought it was just fascinating in a couple of these scenes where you saw you know, apartments and life in Coruscant I think was explored better in this series than anywhere else and a couple of the animated series, you know, did it as well. But you really got, I think, a good feel for Coruscant, which I found to be fascinating.
Stephen Tollafield:Sort of a longing for what maybe their life might have looked like if it hadn't been for the war and for getting wrapped up in Luthan's shenanigans. It's kind of wistful. You know, it struck me when we were watching, as you said, bix was really struggling with the aftermath of her various injuries, and it struck me that this is what the law is envisioning when it compensates people for emotional damages of intentional injuries that happen to them. The kind of the sleeplessness, the inability to focus, the kind of the pain that they're experiencing. They're going through, the mental anguish that they're experiencing. That's the kind of thing that results from injuries that may just be sort of initially physical injuries, but when someone's really grappling with the trauma of what happens to them mentally afterwards, that's what the law is sort of designed to compensate.
Stephen Tollafield:And I think that a lot of times people think of oh well, they're just sad they got hurt and it's not what. They're just trying to get more money out of the defendant when they plead emotional distress. And that's not to say, of course, that a lot of people, or many people, might sort of over-exaggerate their mental consequences of an injury. But this is exactly why the law permits plaintiffs to seek damages for mental injuries like this. So then they're on Coruscant. So then they're on Coruscant. Then we also see it's not really a legal issue, but Mon Mothma. There's a sort of a montage, like a training montage, of her politicking potential votes in the Senate, which I thought was really interesting. There's always been kind of a Senate as kind of especially since the prequels has been a very integral part of the Star Wars story, and I thought it was really interesting to see them actually examining what it's like to be a lawmaker in the Senate. And has any of you, either of you, been involved in any sort of lobbying before?
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:Yes.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:Lobbying before yes.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:One of the few things we were allowed to lobby our state legislature for was after a significant period it was about 13 years that it was before judges were able to get a raise in New York State and we had fallen well behind I think we were 48th of the 50 states in judicial salary and so they made a rare exception, knowing that judges knew a lot of the members of the legislature, to allow us to lobby for pay raises for a couple of years until they were finally able to accomplish some kind of commission that was able to do that.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:So I was involved in lobbying in that extent and was always active politically before I became a judge and did some to that extent, in that I knew a lot of my representatives and some of them were, and still are, you know, I knew a lot of my representatives and some of them were, and still are, you know, good friends of mine. So I found it very fascinating and clearly foreshadowing where Mon Mothra was unsuccessful in trying to get you know the Gorman senator who, very much then you know another spoiler came to regret the fact that he did not do more when he had the opportunity to do more because he was trying to stay on the good side of the empire. And I also love, you know, the new novelizations that have come out that are dealing with this rise of the empire and giving some of that, you know, real down and dirty behind the scenes political stuff to those of us that are the Star Wars fans that like getting every little detail of every little story.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, what did you think? Did they capture effectively the process of lobbying?
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:I think so. The scale of the Senate is so big, so it's all of these blocks. And you know there were various key senators that controlled various blocks and various unions the techno union, the banking clan that controlled certain blocks, and clearly the emperor had his minions within the Senate too. So you would never be able to, in a body that big, be able to reach out to every senator. So it's about getting you know, certain blocks to come along with you.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:And you know Bail Organa and other people that were kind of part of the some of the initial opposition to the emperor, you know could only do so much overtly because they were under all. They were all under heavy watch. You know their limo drivers were working for the empire. So so you know a lot of it was just those, those personal connections like can you get enough of your people to come along to do this, this little thing here that we're trying to do as covertly as possible, and that is a really realistic version of how that kind of lobbying is done. If you have some kind of contact or ability to get that face time with a politician and then convince them that this is know, this is why we need this, can you get others. And then it's horse trading and behind the scenes, and I'll support this one for you and you next support this one for me. That's very realistic.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah yeah. It also kind of shows the ineffectiveness or the limits of politicking, that you can only get you so far and politicians try to make the best judgments they can with the information they have at the time, which kind of explains why the Gorman senator was kind of he was reluctant to help because, like you said, he was advising his people to not make waves and he couldn't be their leader if he was making waves when he was, if he did the exact opposite of what he was trying to tell them to do. So that was really interesting and also kind of an interesting contrast to what we see later in this arc with Saw and his sort of tantalizing portrayal of what revolution really looks like maybe not so political but a little more direct action, but we'll get to that. So then we also transitioned to the Gorman. We start to see a little more direct action, but we'll get to that. So then we also transition to the Gorm and we start to see a little more happening there and we start to see that Cyril has been working as Dedra's double agent and starting to work his way into the Gorm in front to find out what they're doing, and it struck me that this is kind of a situation where, of course, in counterintelligence and that sort of thing is kind of a situation where, you know, of course in counterintelligence and that sort of thing it's kind of a separate military thing.
Stephen Tollafield:But this is a very common law enforcement tactic when law enforcement will have a confidential informant or someone on the inside to try to get evidence to convict or arrest defendants. And it struck me that Cyril didn't quite know the whole story but he was gathering intelligence on Dedger's behalf and I wondered if either of you had any observations about how Cyril's job is going or what at this point in the series he um, he's thinking about or what his goals might be I found it funny how he pushed back on his mom just repeating the the uh propaganda from the uh imperial news.
StarWarsLawyer:They're making fun of palpatine, you know. How dare they, those uppity Gormans and Cyril's just like don't believe everything you see on TV, because he knows they're listening and he's just like, yeah, I'm just gonna, you know, seed my way in there, you know, and I wish we did have a little bit more, because we know, obviously Dedra's plan is to let the gorman front, you know, uh, spring their trap. Um, but it's interesting because, you know, in season one, which I guess is two years, uh, prior to this, you know, saw list the gorman front, but they're just so new you're thinking that they're going to be like some kind of, you know, massive rebel. So, and it's just people, just people, yep, yep.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:Yeah, you know, Deidre certainly could not have picked better in her mission to basically assist a rebel uprising so that the Empire would then have the excuse to stamp it down.
Stephen Tollafield:However, they also wanted to make sure it was as ineffective a rebel uprising as could be. And clearly Cyr of a potential someone who would be a rebel and it was interesting I think later in the series he he does almost sort of seem like he starts to question the empire kind of authentically, which was yeah I, I do think he he, you know is spending that much time on on on gorman and dealing with some of those people.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:I think he did develop a like for them and, although you know he clearly I don't think ever was betraying the empire down the road, he did, I don't think, knew the extent of their evilness in their mind, in his mind and, as a result, evilness in their mind, in his mind and, as a result, you know, he thought that this was, they were going to maybe have a little garrison of troops, which was what the lies that he was being fed. He clearly didn't know that this was about strip mining their planet to the point of destruction, which is what the empire needed to do to build the death star um so so you know he he was a a very gullible uh person, but I think his feelings for the gorman people were legitimate and
Stephen Tollafield:and and real, yeah, yeah yeah, so um, so, then the um, so then we get a quick glimpse of what's going on on Saw Gerrera's new base, which I was really excited to see. We're back to Dakar. Well, I guess maybe that's the first place the rebels were on Dakar, which is later used by the Resistance, of course, in Force Awakens, and so that was really exciting to see, I wonder. It made me think, or wonder how long Dakar has been kind of a hideout planet. Are either of you more familiar with kind of the?
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:backstory of that base than I am. There is a few references in the novels and the comics with regards to Sam, but it's basically just that it was long utilized uh by by the rebellion, uh in their early stages and, and you know, leia was was aware of it uh, so she knew, you know its location and that it was kind of off the charts uh but yeah it was very fascinating, all the locations, uh, that we got to see kind of the, the, the bases, developing to the point where we knew them to be in the movies you know Yavin and such.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:It was really interesting to see how the rebellion in each of these arcs became a little bit or a lot more formalized. You know, from literally just a group of people that you know kind of were working under Axis and Luther and to this you know very regimented military organization, and those that were in the beginning kind of had some resistance to, because they're rebels by nature to some of that formalized structure. But when something gets big, you know, the only way it can operate is some kind of formalized structure and rules.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, yeah, it's funny that we've always known that it was the rebel alliance but we've never really no story has really ever unpacked what that meant, like who is in this alliance and why are they allied and why were they separate organizations before?
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:It's really interesting to explore that where mon motha was one of equals, you know, kind of fighting for her position to to later on, where she you know she clearly uh is. Is the person in charge of uh of the the rebel alliance yeah, and we get to follow one group in rebels.
StarWarsLawyer:And you know, when we see all the different groups together, it's like, okay, there's an adjustment, which we see in the later arcs of andor, like working under a, a military structure instead of doing your own thing. But this is different, where in the first arc we saw the maya pair what was left of them now we're seeing the gorman front, then you have the partisans with saw, then you have uh, luthens and act thus accesses, whatever you want to call them, and it's just, they're all working towards the same goal, but they don't work well together and they have to learn that.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, and they need leadership that's going to have a firm hand and experience as a leader in negotiating and politicking, which is why Mon Mothma is such a great fit for the leader of the Rebel Alliance. Yeah, Great. So any oh go ahead On Gorman itself.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:I think they did a really phenomenal job of establishing a culture. I thought it was very surprising that they gave them their own language.
Stephen Tollafield:I've read a couple of articles.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:You know it's based on French and they actually developed it to the point that you know it could be like Esperanto or any of the other Klingon you know could become the next geek language of choice and just the planet itself, you know, is almost a mix of a Roman French resistance, paris kind of feel to it. You know you saw them in cafes. You saw them drinking, you know, coffee. The outfits were clearly, you know, either Florence, milan or France. You know it had that designer, artistic feel to it and they really did a good job of that which then built to. You know you saw at the monument to the Tarkin massacre.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:You know that people would be gathering and the right to association clearly comes in where, if a constitution of a country like ours gives the people the right to associate, they are allowed to, you know, get together to protest. But there are limits to that right to association. You know it is legal for a government to require permits If something is going to be a large association for everyone's safety. These kind of limits to the right of association have been allowed by the courts and I dealt with this a lot when I handled all the Occupy Wall Street cases for New York City. Clearly, one of the arguments that the occupying defendants made was the right to association and the police were overzealous when they would come down on their right to association. And all that comes into play with regards to the gorman and it was very, very well handled. I thought, uh, in in the arc at that, in in this series yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stephen Tollafield:so yeah, they um the gormans are definitely I. When I um was watching and hearing them speak it, I wanted someone to break in to do hear the people saying it was very French Revolution coded. Absolutely they were very much leading into kind of Nazi-occupied Paris and I thought that was a really really cool design choice. That was really cool.
StarWarsLawyer:Does that make Cyril Javert? Yes, absolutely, or maybe Dedra Just a little combination of the two?
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, totally good observation. Does that make cyril javert absolutely or maybe dead?
Stephen Tollafield:just a little combination of the two. Yeah, totally. Um good, any final thoughts on um, on that episode before we move on to. I have friends everywhere, great. Well, this is the episode where we get to see um uh, uh and or really lean into his spy craft, where he is in disguise and he's got those cool shades and he arrives on Gorman and starts to investigate the Gorman front to see if it's something that Luthan might be interested in incorporating into his more formal rebellion, his more formal rebellion. So that's where things start to get a little complicated with him and Luthan, because he also realizes that Luthan is kind of playing Bix a little bit against or working with Bix kind of behind the scenes. So the things get complicated really quickly. So any observations about anything going on in this episode? Legally it was kind of mostly just spycraft that I saw Very, very much spycraft.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:You know the one legal issue maybe you want to discuss is is he spying? I don't think he would make you know he really wasn't spying on the empire at that point. You know he was in a disguise and there's really no law against being in a disguise. You know he did travel under false papers, so clearly that would be. You know various types of forgery and such were in play. So that would be some of the laws that he would have broken if he was caught by the empire. And I think you know he very quickly sized up the fact that the Gorman Front was not something that was going to be successful and was really going to get themselves into a lot of trouble and that they thought much more highly of themselves than they really had the right to think and that they really were having no chance and that if they put a lot of resources into the Gorman front, they would not get great dividends from that.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:So I think that it was a great episode as far as watching and seeing the actor play the designer that he was and the interaction between him and the hotel clerk, which then comes into play later down the road, where the heartfelt story from that clerk as to the loss of his family members really brought home thatin story so that we understood why the gore were so angry about that, that particular incident, and why that memorial meant something to them and that why that memorial was the appropriate place to assemble yeah, and I thought that was a nice nod to Legends, because the Gorman Massacre in Legends was Tarkin landing his ship on protesting Gormans, which they just made the Tarkin Massacre here.
StarWarsLawyer:And then obviously we see the Gorman Massacre a little later, so that I thought was interesting in the fact that they did memorialize it. And then the Empire is just like we're just're just going to, you know, rub salt in the wound or stick the knife a little bit further in um, and I thought it was funny, the um leader of the gorman front talking to cyril is just like yes, we believe the isb is running a shadow government and emperor palpatine doesn't know which is. It's just really funny, just the irony, since palpatine's been running a shadow government for at this point what?
Stephen Tollafield:20 years, yeah, 25, yeah several of them actually, because yeah he's running the clone war by running both sides of of the uh the participants to to you know, a galaxy-wide war yeah, and I think that observation too underscores just how effective Deirdre has been in kind of pumping up the making sure that those rebels are going to do the wrong thing and in feeding them information and then making them feel like they could actually succeed and giving them confidence so that they will ultimately overplay their hand, and I think it's a really so. It shows like what a good tactician she is and what a mind she has for it.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:Even the success of the mission when they're able to stop the transport and steal the weapons. Just gave them enough weapons to put a great show for the television. So that it was clearly right for the Empire to stomp them down.
Stephen Tollafield:Yep, yeah, very interesting, yeah. So, and then also in this episode we get to see Saw Gerrera taking willman kind of under his wing after um taking out the other guy that willman was training. Yeah, good old pluty. Yeah, we get to learn a little bit more about rido um, and I think you, you all, are a little more sort of um, well read in the kind of the lore and I had to kind of figure out what Rido was, the Ridonium fuel had you encountered that before?
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:I only remember seeing some you know it being referred to.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:I didn't realize that that's what it was that Saw was kind kind of addicted to by yeah sniffing the fumes, uh, so to speak, and you know I also got a, you know, a vibe that you know, although you know sore and and luthen are very different when, when it came to dealing with any loose ends or weak ends, both of them were as ruthless as ruthless could be.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:You know there was why, when he was meeting with Bix, you know, I really thought he was going to take out Bix because her, you know, mental instability was just going to be a danger to Cassian and to the, to his group. And, and you know, when he was kind of giving her some more narcotics, I had a feeling that maybe he was going to be slipping her an overdose and I was glad to see that that wasn't the the case that you know, bix would be able to find her peace, so to speak, and have a successful mission. But, you know, clearly saw what was going to do, or had reached the point in his life that there was no stopping him. You know, very much like Luther, and I think he came to the realization that he wasn't going to see the sunrise that was coming forth down the road, that they would do their best to make sure that the next generation would get to see that sunrise. But they knew that they weren't going to be walking out of this rebel movement themselves.
Stephen Tollafield:Cannon fodder, as he called it.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:Cannon fodder, as he called it.
Stephen Tollafield:Cannon fodder yeah, yeah, yeah, and I like that observation about the ruthlessness because I it. I watched rogue one again after the final episode of I did too, you had to.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:I mean, yeah, exactly. And then I can't. I can't watch rogue one, rogue one, without at least watching the first half an hour of new hope so I go right from one to the other.
Stephen Tollafield:It just makes total sense.
Stephen Tollafield:A new super cut, totally, totally and in rogue one um and or talks about how he's like we've all done terrible things, um in the name of the rebellion, and it's interesting that the show is kind of showing us it actually kind well, it shows us a little bit, but Andor having murdered the soldier which Bix is really struggling with in the first episode of this arc, when apparently he wasn't a threat, he was just kind of a loose end, it shows that Andor has kind of adopted those kind of ruthless tactics of luthen and um and saw in that side of being a rebel, um is really taking its toll on them and it's and it makes that that scene in rogue one where he shoots the guy where the stormtroopers confront them, you really understand that scene just so much better yeah, yeah, because and throughout the, the series of andor, you kind of really get to identify with with andor, and in the beginning of rogue when it first came out, you didn't really understand him or know who this guy was, and so seeing that kind of act of cruel, that ruthlessness, was kind of shocking, um, but it's.
Stephen Tollafield:But I like how the series is building that into his character and and it's and showing us where that comes from. It's really interesting.
StarWarsLawyer:Yeah, I know we saw it in the trailer. But to get the greater context of Saul saying revolution is not for the sane, you know, just in a greater context, is it makes sense? Because what they're all doing, all the rebels that we're following in this series, is crazy. You ask the, you know the average imperial citizen. It is crazy what they're doing, rebelling against the empire. And then the lengths that they have to go, you know to do it. You know we've seen, you know, lutheran speech. You know I've adopted the tools of my enemy to defeat them. And Saul is based is definitely by any means necessary, and so, um. And then you think of the politicians, like mon or bail and people like well, you're in a position of power, like why would you ever go against the empire? Like you've got it good, you know you're both rich. Like why would you do this? You know it's. It goes beyond just um, the, the foot soldiers, or the captains, the lieutenants and everything.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:It goes all throughout the rebellion and, and you know, dovetailing on that with the giving up um, you know you're rich. The series really did a really good job of showing how good the luxury life in the empire was.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:You know Mon Martha could have lived a very comfortable life in the empire and this, you know, leads to the next episode where you see another party on her planet and the wedding, just the opulence and the car she drives around in. I mean it really showed that the high, the aristocracy of the empire, that the politicians, the rich that were of the empire, the politicians the rich that were in the empire, really did not have a bad life. The planet that had the minerals that the empire needed. They were going to get messed up but if you live and let live and and didn't resist, you could have a very nice life in the, the, uh, the, the imperial universe yeah, it was funny that I can't remember what was.
Stephen Tollafield:This episode, or maybe the next one, started off with the um, the, the hollow um net uh show is like the talk show of the women talking about the parties and and how? Um you know they wanted to talk about who's wearing what. What's, uh, who's wearing what and um sort of very rung, very true with our culture of sort of people being preoccupied with wealth and and status and celebrity.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:Um, and I thought that was a really interesting take on tony gilroy on behalf of how like wonderful some people have it, but for everyone else it's um, maybe not so great I loved some, all of those moments of you know showing um the television show or even the commercial that was about the gorman and their planet and the production and how they produce their clothing, and those little snippets just really round out the universe in such a wonderful way.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, the world building is really next level in this series for sure. Great. Well, so we can move on to. What a festive evening. That we're sort of talking about the party, unless you had any other observations about that other show or that other episode Great.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:And let's go to the party.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, the party was something to be seen and this is where, as we said, Mon Mothma and Perrin, her husband, go to the event thrown by Davo Skuldin, their new relative, I guess their in-laws. Their in-laws?
Joshua Gilliland:Yeah, exactly um relative, I guess their daughters their in-laws.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, exactly, um, so they're going to the party and get invited to see the secret collection which, as we've learned um, contains a listening device that luthen and clay I have uh planted, uh in um to listen in on scolden's uh happenings, and so, um, this actually presented quite a legal issue. That stuck out to me was the fact that there's a listening device planted on someone's private property, and we all know that, of course, if you're law enforcement or you're in the government, you need a warrant to wiretap someone, but any thoughts on a private citizen wiretapping someone else.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:It's clearly an invasion of privacy and since this was being done to further an anti-government movement, you can make an argument that it would be treason to the empire as well. I cannot wait for the visual dictionaries of Andor both to get the little tidbit stories of this collection and store.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:You know everything from. You know we now know that there's a Gungan skull that had the crest of the Darth Revan's empire. So you know, the little tidbits that they put into these art collections are beyond fascinating. So I can't wait to, you know, flush out all the details as to that. But you know clearly you don't have the right, and most states have various laws that deal with unlawful eavesdropping and wiretapping, and I would be very surprised if the empire didn't have such rules that prohibit such. But you also clearly see in various scenes throughout the series that the empire has no problem whatsoever to listening in on many conversations, offices, telephone conversations the ISB has been able to do in the years that the Empire has been around. Interactions between the, the various players, uh, you know, especially uh, mon martha and and the director, who's, you know, building the, the death star as they play. That little bit of a cat and mouse discussion was, was my favorite part of the episode yeah, yeah, yeah, trespass it like.
Stephen Tollafield:having a listening device is certainly, uh, not a great thing for people in private citizens, among each other and, as you point out, in an authoritarian society, privacy when it comes to the government is really not a thing. People's communications and monitors them for anti-government sentiments that they might take action on. So in the intelligence gathering in an authoritarian system like the empire is, of course, very elaborate and very intense.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:And I have been in the position where you know I've gotten these requests from government especially at least I did that the government has met their various burdens, that they have to meet in order to convince you to sign off on these various warrants and eavesdropping and wiretapping and tracking of phones, and you know so there's a safeguard that that of those of us that were in the in in the judiciary role, um to to have to convince us first, before the government was was able to to do these kind of things, and it's, you know, it's those kind of safeguards, uh that that protect, um the rights of the citizens and and and I don't see the Empire having such safeguards, yeah, no, not at all.
Stephen Tollafield:They're not super into those for sure. So while that's happening on Coruscant, of course, back on Gormin the heist is going forward and Luthen sends Vel and Sinta to kind of make sure they don't go too far off the rails and it of course ends in tragedy. I guess this situation, this heist, it's a theft obviously, but any thoughts on sort of how, like what other crimes or what other things are going on in this situation?
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:They set off an incendiary device so that you know that would be a crime um you know depth of government property yeah, which josh and I talked about last week it would definitely be an act of terrorism against the empire, because it was it was. It was done in such a manner, um, as would have met their, their terrorist, um type of things but, and, like you said, you know it, it clearly showed that the gorman front wasn't ready for prime time.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:But for Bell and Sintes, even just their participation in the planning, if they weren't there to say, no, you've got to do this, you've got to do this, you've got to do this, it wouldn't have even gotten to as far as it did. You know, unfortunately there was uh, since life, you know, was tragically ended by a, by stupidity of a member of the government front. But you know, I don't think they even would have gotten successful at stopping the, the transport, if it wasn't for their little bit of help that they gave um. So you know, it clearly proved uh, cassie incorrect, that the, they, they really should not put a lot of uh resources into the gorman front yeah, they, they weren't ready.
StarWarsLawyer:And I knew, uh, that guy was gonna do something stupid because he just had that. Look about him like, oh yeah, it's go time, I'm ready, I'm ready. No, you're absolutely not. And they were right like you needed to listen and do exactly what they said. And they didn't, and senta paid the price. And then I knew narratively that I I figured like something's about to go wrong, one of them's about to die. But then, once they reconciled and Cinta was just like I'm sorry, you know, I went through this, I went through that. I'm like, oh yeah, you're dead.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:Rip, yeah it definitely became a tragic love story at that point, because the two of them you can always sense that they really cared about each other and loved each other and and then they had that brief, you know, being reunited and and you could tell that things were going to go in the right direction. So that wasn't going to happen.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, pretty much every couple in star wars. Yeah, there's not.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:There's not a lot of successful you. Even even hannah leyer couldn't make it.
Stephen Tollafield:You know they fell apart.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:You know there's really not a lot of successful stories In the books. The most successful story was probably Luke and Mary Jade and as a result, I don't think we'll ever see Mary Jade. Yeah.
Stephen Tollafield:Happy relationships are not consistent with the Star Wars aesthetic, for sure. But I thought that it was interesting too that Cinta's homicide raised just kind of a very interesting first year law student, criminal law, felony murder situation where anyone who gets injured or killed in the commission of a crime is charged as a homicide. Like that guy is a murderer. He certainly didn't intend to kill Cinta, but because of the because it occurred during the commission of a felony, he's really anyone that was part of that mission could be.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:You know he clearly could. He, he did the key, killed her, so he could clearly be charged with the murder. But but all of the other participants could also be charged with that murder, because someone died during the commission of a felony and I'd be hard pressed to say that this wasn't in some way a felony in the in the empire. So, and they were all aware that they were Well, I can't say that because they weren't supposed to all be carrying weapons. They weren't supposed to all be carrying weapons, um, so they're supposed to have right there. So there is a defense to the felony murder in some states that if you are unaware that your co-conspirator was carrying a weapon, um, some states allow that as something that you could plead in order to get around the, the felony murder. But that depends on the jurisdiction. Probably the empire would not be so forgiving no yeah yeah, so that's all that last season yeah
Stephen Tollafield:yeah, so that casts a long shadow over kind of the end of the of this arc. But, um, I thought it was a very satisfying arc in the way that it ended with a couple of wins for our main characters. Um, luthan and Clea have a moment as they leave Skulden's party where they are happy that they succeeded in removing the listening device and they shared a little moment of levity, which is really nice. And then we see Bix kind of get her revenge.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:And that was wonderful to see.
StarWarsLawyer:Oh, fantastic.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:That was a game of thrones. When the king finally got his just dessert with that poison wine, it was one of those moments Watching this imperial torturer literally get his own medicine was wonderful.
Stephen Tollafield:Very satisfying and you could see from the smile on Bix's face as she walked away, as they you know they cool people never look back at explosions. Of course, as they walk away after detonating his floor, she's. You can see that that's very healing for her. Probably not something that is recommended for um. You know people in our universe to exact vengeance, kind of like that um but um, but that brings her closure to something that's really been tormenting her for a long time and I agree with you, steven.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:That scene where you're walking forward and the explosions happening behind you that you know are going to happen is like pure hollywood yep, yeah, they needed those sunglasses to put on. Yeah and you know clearly criminal wise. Uh, you know the empire would be charging them with with murder of anybody that was in that building, destruction of property uh, probably acts of terrorism as well yeah, yeah, and that was a that was becoming military technology.
Stephen Tollafield:Now too, the, the torture device, was being relocated from ISB to the Navy, I guess, and so that was, that was probably would up the ante.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:Probably a much better way to interrogate leia as opposed to the you know the black droid with the needles coming close up, but but you know they might have been able to successfully, uh, interrogate her oh gosh, I hadn't even thought of that.
Stephen Tollafield:That's that I'm still afraid of needles to this day because of that stupid scene. I can. I had a really hard time with blood draws. Thanks, star Wars.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:I got a version of one back there somewhere.
Stephen Tollafield:Oh no, I'll avoid looking at those pictures. So yeah, so this episode, so this that what a Festive Evening kind of wraps up this arc. Any final thoughts or observations about this sequence? Josh?
Joshua Gilliland:do you want to chime in? It was a great arc and you guys did a very nice job covering it. Yeah, a lot to think about with the right to association throughout the set time place manner, restrictions on those rights, uh, murder, bad couples. Therapy should not involve blowing somebody up. I just want to put that out there. We don't do that. You know therapists will recommend it. Well, let me rephrase that I don't think a therapist would recommend it, and if one does, daredevil daredevils or kingpin, and his wife's therapist might, in the next season, recommend it.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:So that'll be. That'll be to be seen in future podcasts yeah, it's.
Joshua Gilliland:It's a bad mojo there and the thinking about gorman, like what could they do? I mean, this is where passive resistance probably would have been a better play for them. Uh, I'm not saying that there's a lot of gandhi or martin luther king jr in the star wars universe, but that probably would have been a better long-term strategy for them. Uh, opposed to what they ended up doing, which which does not work for them although how much long term did they really have?
Stephen Tollafield:Their planet was going to blow up there's? Yeah, it's interesting. I think Tony Gilroy is really kind of pushing at our, our sensibilities about what is an effective means of protest and what is an effective means of rebelling when the government becomes totalitarian, like that of rebelling when the government becomes totalitarian, like that.
Joshua Gilliland:Well, and it also goes to the militarization of the press and being able to leverage, again, the passive resistance to a movement to displace the people. You know, can that work in 24-hour coverage or would the propaganda win? Don't know the answer to that. But you know there are examples, both historical and fiction.
Joshua Gilliland:It's one of the Tom Clancy novels, I think it's some of all fears where, uh, you know, you have a protest in israel and the palestinians adapt passive resistance and taking the page and singing we shall overcome, and it ends with one of the israeli soldiers shooting one of the protesters in the head on live TV, which then the world swings an opinion and you end up with the Vatican deploying its robo-troopers to instill peace and be the peacekeepers, and all that. But again, that's an example of a passive resistance to a totalitarian action against a peaceful protest. So could that work in the Star Wars universe? Maybe, maybe not, I mean, with the press controlled, I don't know. But that's where my mind went in, seeing the guys with the flags trying to protest and knowing that it's only going to get worse and probably the planet would become uninhabitable.
Stephen Tollafield:Yeah, which was the empire's? Point Exactly, they were sort of manipulating it to box everyone in, like that, and then they had a sniper who shot you went in like that, and then they had a sniper who shot you.
Judge Matthew Sciarrino:Yeah, it was very well orchestrated by the ISB. They did their mission successfully.
Stephen Tollafield:Went all according to Detra's plan. Yeah, this is devious. Any final thoughts before we sign off on this episode? Great, you want to take us out, josh, since you're here sure, everyone thanks for tuning in.
Joshua Gilliland:Wherever you are, stay safe, stay healthy and stay geeky. Take care now.
